Soul SG 5

[Shiki]

Just FYI, our old VS tourneys used to run abt 3 hours on a 16-man, double-elim on four cabinets (meaning we run 2 matches at 1 go) ^^ Which is pretty ok. Edit: Sorry, further clarification - Dbl Elim, best of 3 games, set to best of 5 rounds.

My personal preference is double-elims. Not as long-winded as swiss ladders and round robins and not as shock "huh? i'm done already?" fast as singles.

Bear in mind, this is not a hardcore $10000000 prize money SBO type tourney. What is your objective? I would assume it is for everyone to bond, kick back, have FUN and enjoy the game together.

So while it's nice to follow international standards of gameplay, it's even better to strike a nice balance so that everybody gets to enjoy the game/tourney. You wouldn't want to make all the effort of going down to the tourney, get whacked out within 5 min, and spend the rest of the night just watching the pros hog the console would you?

So why not just keep it simple first, 16-man, double elim, standard time (which i dunno how long) and random stage? The game is still new. Explore it and make necessarily rules and changes as we go on.

Oh, and this is totally for those those familiar with many a mad night in CK's (sometimes driven by Tax) car: www.avenueq.sg

I'll be going with my polymate and Roy for the preview show on Oct 30 ^^. $60. Any cheaper tix are all sold out =\

[Shen Ou]

On Single Elimination vs Double Elimination.
If you want a summary, scroll down. If you want my reasoning, say hello to my wall of text.

What is in the works is an event of hopefully 4 hours long.
The tournament is only part of the event.
Rii's numbers are safe numbers, realistically we're looking at 2/3 of that time taken. This is all presuming that we're only using 1 console, with a 2nd console I'd say we can cut the time taken by 30% and with even more sets we can do casuals while the tournament is on.

Thinking back, I don't really forsee the reason why we had tournaments. Nobody really wanted to win, everyone just wanted to get together with something organized going on. Thus, we don't really have any standard to fall back on. Times have changed, we know have players aspiring to be the best, competing against foreign players if the chance is given. Rumor has it that SCIV has a very high chance of landing in CGS '09 and WCG '09. Yet another reason for those enthusiastic to move forward.

To me, this community must be made up of competitive and casual players. It is our responsibility as people who claim to love the game to be able to provide new players equal sides of the field. Thus when it comes to Single Elim vs Double Elim, I have reasons as to why both parties should lean toward Single Elim.

For the competitive side.

The target for the current best players in the country, is to compete in Japan. In Japan the format is Single Elimination.

If a newcomer were to join the tournament for experience, wouldn't it be a pretty vague one if the tournament conditions were not similar to that of the tournaments that the best in Singapore aspire to conquer?

If one of the aspiring players were to join a tournament for practice and experience, wouldn't it be unwise for them to partake in one that has been "cushioned" for newcomers, instead of tailoring to the needs of the people who can and IMO WILL be able to attain something higher?

For the Casual Side.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but for casual players, the reason you attend a tourney is to support and to give exposure to those who wish to proceed on. Casual players are the backbone of any fighting game community, they are the cushion needed for the newcomers to adapt, as well as the sparks needed for the competitive to burn (or humble them :P). In this or any event, I gather that most of the casual players would rather... play casuals.

A single elimination tournament will give those who WANT the tournament the proper experience for playing in Japan, it will also end faster, providing more time for casuals for both pools of players in general.

Double Elimination IMO was the preferred method because we wanted everyone to have a 2nd chance, as well as letting someone make up for any mistakes they made. However, if we were to do this now, If we held this thing 4 times a year, only once will we not see Jovian and Raymus at 1st and 2nd... And that will be because they are in BMT.

Now that we have a varied pool of players, we need more time and we need more aggression. Single Elimination will bring forth both.

Summary

Please note that the event consists of a tournament + casuals. Thus the faster the tournament ends, the more time we'll have for casuals. So do not worry about "not getting to play enough"

Single Elimination Pros

Provides authentic Japanese tournament experience.
Requires less time, opening up more time to Casuals.
Mistakes are deadly, players must be at top of their game.
More varied winners, as mistakes may lead to immediate loss.
Less waiting time, more playing time.

Double Elimination Pros

"2nd Chance" to win even if you lose a match-up.
More matches, more material to watch (if you're into that)

As someone who wants to see local SCIV players in CGS/WCG/SBO and beyond, as well as somebody who'd rather playmore than watch all. I cast my vote for Single Elim.

Shiks: times have changed, nowadays when you lose the 1st round in a double elim. Its more of "Wah sian, time to lose AGAIN!" Thus, Single Elim = People who want tourney get what they want. People who want to play more get what they want too.

Double Elim = People who want tourney have to lose to Jovian and Raymus, People who want to play have to watch Jovian and Raymus.

Also the objective of tournaments is to bring forth a winner.
For some reason for Soul SG the objective became to decide who buys dinner. That's not the case any longer so we have to change things.

[Shen Yu]

Originally posted by Shen Rii
Gosh I really hate to play janken.

But janken is all about yomi!

[whirow]

then play Chee Goo Pah~
that 1 is about Yomi and Reflex~

[TaXi]

great discussion going on here! just some input from me:

- the focus of the event should be the tourney imo. if we're doing 4 hours, i'm thinking 3 hours of tourney and 1 hour of casuals would be a good mix. also, if we have enough setups (i'm thinking of about 4 setups at the moment), we could dedicate 1 or 2 towards casual play/warmup while the competition is taking place.

- can someone clarify on what the wcg format for matches for vf5 is? i've heard it's single elim, but it looks like it's best of 3 matches, with each match being best of 5.

Originally posted by Shiki
Oh, and this is totally for those those familiar with many a mad night in CK's (sometimes driven by Tax) car: www.avenueq.sg

I'll be going with my polymate and Roy for the preview show on Oct 30 ^^. $60. Any cheaper tix are all sold out =\

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! i am going to buy tix NOW.

[Shiki]

Eh? Times have changed? Now i feel like a gazillion years old. Thx -_-

Yes I'm aware SBO and international comp has single elims. What I am unaware of was that this tourney was for training up and getting ppl used to SBO format. Hence my question - what is the purpose of your tournament? Prepare for SBO? Just have good ol casual tourney (yes these do exist) fun?

If the majority of the guys and gals joining in would like a double-elim, well why not give what the majority wants? Training in single-elims to prepare future warriors for a glorious fight in the international arena can always be arranged I'm sure.

Casuals and tourneys have a different feel imo - I will not win any tournament, but I would join to get that rush and to see how far I can climb if I were to play my utmost best. Casuals to me are to pick secondary characters and try out weird shit just for the heck of it...amongst other things. If I were to join a tourney with a "aiyah, gonna lose anyway" instead of "i'm gonna do my best and learn!" mindset, wtf am I doing in a tourney then -_-

And as for people with the mindset of "I lost my first round, I shall prepare to lose my second round in double elim", I say that they deserve to lose. The wins that have come out from a losers bracket for any game are pretty darn exciting to watch. Even if the tourney may not be of international standard and format ^_~

But aiyah, just make it simple lor - ask everyone to vote what format they like best. Then just go for it.

[Shen Rii]

Well, if we want to really look into tourney formats, iirc Single Elims is the Japanese format, Double Elims is the Western format.

And Taxi has a point, what are the formats for the tournies that we can attend? It's best that we stick to those for now.

Unless SC4:AE comes out, there probably won't be any SC4 in SBO (Japan's biggest tournament).

If we have enough setups, we can have casuals but only those out of the competition can play. Otherwise, there'd be lotsa choke points.

Some additional notes:
In my SBO experience, the players have to gather early and there is NO warmup. You go there, you wait till it's your turn. No matches, nothing. You just have to be ready.

In Cannes, there's alot of warmup time allowed. I think the tournament started in the afternoon, giving the early birds lotsa time to play.

So if we want to simulate the Japanese style or the Western style, might as well go all the way.

[Shen Ou]

Shiks: Oops! You know I don't mean it that way!

It depends really on what we want, my concern now is that the game is young, and there isn't anything major going on.
Having a serious tournament is sort of pointless, apart from mental aspects of a tournament like one's nerves and such, game-play issues are still very "meh" and Namco's 1st patch implies that they are going down the "Patch 1st, worry later" path.

Either we go for a casual tourney, or do a quick one and get it over with. My issue with a "casual" tourney is that in Soul SG.. the term "Casual" is really up in the air and nowadays its more likely to bring forth a clash of egos rather than awe and laughter like back in the ULUS era. Thus I lean towards getting a quickie done and moving on to casuals, its more playtime for everyone as well. (TBH, I'm more for not having a tournament at all, but you guys seem set on it so :X)

Having casuals run at the same time as the tournament, will give people yet another reason not to play in the tournament.
And honestly, we have a lot of people like that around.
Its a preference, I have no problem with that, but the fact that it hampers tournament organization stands.

[Shen Yu]

I don't really care too much which way we do it. But I have a slight preference to SBO style Single Elim due to time constraints and the ability to do one pretty much on the spot. Also, if we are going to start tracking rankings and stuff like that, it might be good to come up with something we can stick to.

The way I see it, we can do it either one of two ways to fit the time schedule and allow for a decent amount of casuals in a 4 hour time period. (Keep in mind we also have to take time to set up/pack up our stuff.)

For singles:

-Single Elim but best of 3 matches. Allows for more adaptation.

-Double Elim but only one match. Should be a decent compromise.

For doubles:

-Single Elim. No choice. Double Elim would likely take too long.

I don't want us to go to a 4 hour event and then come away going, "AUUUGGGGH STRESSED." because we're all rushing to get the tournament done with no time to play casuals. I want us to have fun and hopefully learn something.

Another thing keep in mind that matches in SC4 tend to take somewhat longer due to the more space based gameplay. I'm sure you've all noticed this, so do try to factor this into your calculations.

In any case, I suggest this first event be treated as a trial rather than us going all out for it on our first try on organising something like this. Either that or we try the different formats first before we make a decision for running events.

[whirow]

i guess league format is out of the question then ^^;

[dtarchon]

Sam: I had something long written up but i ditched it for another...

This is what is important.

WE need tourneys. We need our good players to participate. We need a framework to encourage our existing players to become even better. We need a system where everyone who put in effort is given a fair shot of being among the top.

Double Elim - After one loss..it becomes a single elim..so bamm what's the problem here? Problem here is time. NOT competitiveness. Double Elims are very much competitive and while Japan might be a place to aspire to compete in, REALISTICALLY our tourney will do nuts to help the top players if there isn't enough dedicated players to sustain it.

Continuous Intensive training with strong "fiery" opponents is the way to go. Personal motivation, experimentation and talent is what's needed to really be the top. Are u guys confident of being No.1 in the world? Do u aspire to be the best of the best? If u don't have that mentality, u already lost the battle on your route to Japan or whatever. Look at Wilson.. He has shown the impossible is very much possible.

If u are gonna do something big, do it all the way. Whether or not u r rewarded for yr efforts is another story. It is all in the mind.

Back to tourneys..what to do, what to do..

Talk is cheap. Action is what counts. Just put a vote for single or double. Or maybe to please both sides, we go with the vote then for the next tourney switch to the other choice.

Sounds fair no?

[AbbiyR]

Err... correct me if I am wrong here. I am guessing that you guys are thinking to promote SC4 to the local communities in phases right? Eg.

Phase 1: Introduction of the old and new faces of SC4.
Identify whose's the master and whose the padawan?

Phase 2: Ladder Tourney
Trainings for talents.

Phase 3: Sg Seeded Tourney
Judgement Day for challengers.

Phase 4: something...


So, I think a simple intro tourney should be held first instead of an all out tourney. Unless you guys already gone through phase 1 already? If so, I am very sorry, please ignore this post. -_-"

[Shen Yuan]

I agree with archon and farp in most points.

First one being the format that has been voted for the most... and the second one being the other one...

sounds fair.

[Shen Ou]

Originally posted by AbbiyR
Phase 1: Introduction of the old and new faces of SC4.
Identify whose's the master and whose the padawan?

No, there hasn't been a Phase 1 yet.
This is why I'm pushing for it now.

Btw, my above thoughts are all restricting to this one, upcoming, premier event.. I do want future events to be a lot more competitive. A lot more brutal and at the same time, a lot more educational.

I think all the other "Shen"s have heard this upcoming bit from me before.

Video Gaming is as competitive as any sport out there.
Those who work hard enough at it, have a talent at it, and can accomplish more than we can offer deserve an avenue to shine.
If we do not provide it, who will?
Like mentioned by so many people, I think that we have enough people here that want to build a GROWING community.
From veterans like Rii/Tax/Archon to newcomers like AbbiyR and Booga.

Taking previous discussion into consideration, I suggest we do the upcoming tournament via votes. On that day itself, those who opposed the outcome (for example, if its double elim, then this decision goes to those who voted single elim) to determine whether they still think we should give their point of view a get go.

The following event will be based on that. And afterwhich everyone will be able to give a proper, solid vote. On which method they prefer.

This is about the community as a whole, not just about those who want to improve imo.

OR. We could just run Double Elim with consoles on the side for casuals DURING the event. Give people the option to do whatever they want so to speak :P

[whirow]

I don't really understand the whole "everything follow japanese" thing at the moment, its not like SBO is the only major tournement isn't it?
since what we want now is to build game experience, isn't it better to be able to play everyone? rather than miss out on playing some people. and also in singapore we're somewhat lacking in certain "less played" characters, and lacking certain styles of play for some characters, i believe that is what we're weak in, knowledge in different forms of flow.

[Shiki]

Hey guys! Have set up a poll for tourney format! Make your votes and we'll see how this goes yeah? ^^

I'm all for the idea of rotating different formats for each month/tourney session. Makes for good variety of play and a good compromise on the different needs of everyone.

[TaXi]

thank you shiks!!

just for reference, here are some different styles to look at:

- virtualand style: double elim, best of 3 matches
- wcg style: single elim, best of 5 matches (at least for the finals, maybe someone could clarify on the non-final match format)
- sbo style: single elim, best of 1 match
- sc2 nationals: double elim, best of 3 matches

the results will decide our format for next month's tourney. with regards to singles/pairs, let's see how many people turn up for this first tourney so we know how many people we can work with. i'm currently trying to procure a venue for the tourney, but i can't really confirm anything yet. if we do get this venue, however, it'll mean that the event will be 4 hours (because that's the minimum booking time).

[Shen Chan]

Tax: I'm free to help ya with the organising and stuff, so drop me a PM or msg me if u need anything.

[boogalogist]

Yeah. Good ideas overall.

Tax: PM or SMS me if you require any help on the organising. Let's segregate out the work to lessen the burden on one person.

Maybe have an organising committee meet up(in person or online) to discuss matters.



When's the next offline session? I need more offline practice!!





Who are the "less played" characters in the SC4 community?

[AbbiyR]

Hi guys,
I voted in that poll. Double Elim, best of 3.
I prefer the more friendly type of game

yeah... when's the next offline session?
F1 fever this weekend. Anyone will play SC4? hmmm...

[Shen Ou]

Just to list out for fun and laughter.

Algol - Aheda, Rii
Amy - Aheda, TaXi
Astaroth - Aheda, whirow, boogalogist
Cassandra - TaXi, Farp
Cervantes - Jovian
Darth Vader - Rii
Hilde - Raymus
Ivy - jouli, AbbiyR
Kilik - Aheda
Lizardman - ???
Maxi - whirow
Mitsurugi - whirow
Nightmare - Jovian, Rii
Raphael - Raymus, Rii , Leo
Rock - Jovian
Seung Mina - Farp
Setsuka - Jovian
Siegfried - Leo
Sophitia - hkw
Taki - TaXi, Mich, boogalogist
Talim - Farp, Raymus
The Apprentice - Jovian, Rii
Tira - ???
Voldo - Jovian, boogalogist
Xianghua - Raymus
Yoda - ???
Yoshimitsu - Jovian
Yun Seong - Jovian
Zasalamel - Raymus, Jovian

feel free to add your name to the list
Only listing self-proclaimed mains.

[whirow]

i do use Mitsu and Asta also, and Vader though not a very strong one ^^;

ps: Aheda don't like Yun Seung lol~

[boogalogist]

Add me to Taki, Voldo and Asta

[AbbiyR]

Main Char: Ivy

Fun Char: Astaroth, Voldo, Amy, Raphael

[TaXi]

i stopped playing cass... sorry farp!! cass fiesta is hereby closed until further notice.

on another note, i'm playing lizardman now